#84: Artist: Kim-A-Tron: Quite Silly Dark Things

This week we are chatting with UK artist, Kim-A-Tron! Kim Thompson is an artist out of Nottingham, England and it was my pleasure to be able to connect and talk about creativity with someone on the other side of the world. Spoiler: Creatives in the UK deal with the same stuff that you and I do.

I love Kim's work, it's bold and colourful with reclaimed heroic themes. She's paints moments that represent power reversals and that suggest a whole epic story. Make sure you check out Kim-A-Tron's Instagram - it's a great episode. Do it up.

Music by Matt Large

Transcript generated automatically via Descript

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ryan: [00:00:00] Hi,

kim: Hi.

ryan: how are you doing?

kim: Okay. Yeah. I'm a bit groggy. I'll be honest. I had a little afternoon nap,

which

ryan: What time is It there?

kim: is just gone three. So yeah, it's like not, there's

no excuse, but I've had enough of that time, but I just was

ryan: You don't need an excuse, to nap at three. Everyone wants to

kim: It's true.

ryan: did it. I'm a bit groggy. Cause it's like 10 here. So I'm like, okay. I gotta be on for 10 that like a baby, like I'm like, it's going to be hard. I'm so, so glad that you agreed to chat with me today. I'm so looking forward to it. I, so I just get this out of The way I adore your artwork.

Like it's, it's like vintage, but new, like it's, it's colorful, but it's also feels like you know, like it's stood the test of time. I love it. I really love it. How are you feeling about the podcast? Are you have any questions for me before we get into it?

kim: I have no idea. I think so. I mean, I had to look at your [00:01:00] questions that you can send through and I'm sorry, it's chow. I'm always

happy to chat about these things and if they can sort of be of use to somebody else who's creative or wanting

to be, then that's

great.

ryan: yeah. Yeah. All right. So if you're all ready, if you can tell everyone where you're from and then we'll just start rolling. Okay.

kim: Yeah. So I'm from Nottingham, UK. And my name is Kim Thompson, but you probably know me best as Kim, a Tron on Instagram. I'm kind of a bit of everything. I'm an illustrator, but I do sort of commercial work you know, at my own stuff I pain, I guess have your fingers in a lot of pies to survive as a career.

ryan: I love it. Kim and Tron. Thank you for being on the podcast today. How did we get here? Bring me back to. Kim, but Kim, as a little girl, how did this start off?

kim: From the beginning, it's really funny.

I don't

really have a memory of this, but I was actually talking to my mom the other day. And apparently from the age of,

up two or three, I would just say sort of, Trump's [00:02:00] fixed watching TV for hours and hours and just copying things from the screen, just drawing characters. And she said, I think I was watching.

Do you know, have you ever seen this like a

sort of 1960s really sort of queen animated film of Winnie the Pooh. And apparently I drew a character from that and she was like, that is identical, but I was like three or some things. So she was like,

wow, we need to really foster this this scale and make sure she carries on

doing it.

So that was.

ryan: I love that the use of the 1960s, because even it's interesting that that even is coming up right. now at the beginning, because your work has that classic, you know, vibe that, you know, it's interesting. That's kind of like built in from the beginning.

kim: Yeah, I hadn't even thought about it, but yeah,

that's where it also started.

ryan: what were some of the ways that they fostered that, that they kind of made sure that there was a safe place for that to grow?

kim: It's interesting. My dad is a really talented painter and my dad said Jamaican and came to this [00:03:00] country when he was 12. And his dad was very sort of with a lot of people whose parents have migrant. You're not necessarily encouraged to be creative

and you've just met to.

get a job. And I think because he was so kind of dissuaded from like nurturing that talent, my parents always just made sure that I had, you know, like the space to create and, you know, they wouldn't

ryan: Okay.

kim: tell me off for being distracted and drawing.

And I think they just were always really kind of supportive and, you know, told me that what I was doing was good and make sure that had like, just even very simple tools to draw away and stuff. And, you know, they make a point of displaying the work and things like that. So I guess when you come from that sort of, when you're taught that it's like a valid scale, you know, that since still quite young, it's

quite helpful as you grow older and carry

on.

ryan: Yeah. I love that too. That it wasn't like overbearing, you know, like sometimes if someone like displays a gift, like you're drying things exactly from the TV, they can kind of be, they can hone in on it a little too much and almost like take the fun out of it. But just giving you the encouragement, the [00:04:00] place, the place to grow and

kim: just the simple things of just kind of being supportive enough, but yeah,

definitely no sort of,

oh, well you need to do this to the best of your ability and we're going to make sure

that you only do that sort of thing.

ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really love that And like I have kids and it's really hard to like be encouraging, but not too encouraging, you know,

kim: Yeah. I can imagine.

ryan: So after, you know, you're getting a little bit older. When did you start to kind of hone in on like what you were doing and I love what you said before about, you know, having to have your fingers in a lot of pies. When did you start kind of wanting to take this a bit more seriously?

kim: I think it all thought if there was actually like a, a bit of a turning point, I guess when I was, maybe I'd just finished uni. So over here, basically the trajectory, if you want to kind of go into career in the arts I studied up to foundation level art, which is kind of the thing you do before you go on to like university.[00:05:00]

So you do that and then you, and you have to choose whether you're going to kind of pursue that sole at university. And like a lot of my tutors, I was sort of going for like graphic design type courses. They were like, why you're an illustrator, you know, like you should. Exercise that part of it. Cause that's obviously naturally what you seem to do.

So I picked to study that Manchester, metropolitan university in the UK and it wasn't, I think

even then, like, it's really weird that you have to there's a lot of, I think in any sort of like career that you go into, I find it

really bizarre that you have to kind of like make this decision

for the rest of your life when you're basically still a keg.

Like I know that

when I was 18, 19, when I went to

uni, I didn't have like a grand plan. I just

thought, well, I like doing this. And a lot of people that I know on my course ended up dropping out and doing like another type of course, because

they couldn't say how they could make a career out of it. So I wouldn't say that it was even then I realized that I wanted to, although there was a turning point and I was like, right, yeah, this is going to be my job.[00:06:00]

And it was only, I think I distinctly remember there was a point where I was kind of.

Juggling, quite a lot of

things after university. So obviously it's quite difficult as a creative to go

straight into the industry. Isn't it like

it's nerd off mostly. But I was kind of doing my temp work. I was working as like a study support to you and students with learning difficulties.

And I just was kind of constantly in the background doing my own sort of

little illustration projects, like mainly quite silly dark things, but I didn't really have any sense of what I wanted to do. And I remember having a discussion with my dad, who I previously mentioned was like also really brilliant artist and just say, look, I'm so fed up of having no money and, you know, kind of going and doing these jobs that I dislike.

So I'd just go into something easier, you know, like, should I become a teacher in the arts or something like that? And my dad said to me, you should definitely not do that because you'd be really bad at it and you'd be miserable and you [00:07:00] sort of sad. For all, you know, your kind of worries about work and money and everything.

Like no matter what you choose to do. I think because he knows me so well, he was like the sort of person you are. The best thing that you can do is kind of just carry on chipping away like this, but become very, very good at what you do to the point where people will start to believe you and buy into it.

I think that's the best piece of advice that I think you could apply to a lot of things, just persistence and really perfecting your craft. And I think it was after that conversation, which happened, I guess when I was maybe sort of in my early twenties after university, that I kind of took that advice on board.

And the more that I kind of thought in that way, the less I worried and the more I kind of

started getting the kinds of jobs that led me to where I am

now.

ryan: Yeah. Yeah. I love that you brought up that about being younger, you know, it's so true that, so when you're younger, you don't realize it, but so much of like the direction for the rest of your life is really getting like baked in. Right. Then when you're, [00:08:00] you know, making mistakes, drinking too, like when you're making all the mistakes, you're kind of setting the rest of your life.

And I also loved what you brought up about, like

there's always that balance that we're trying to find of, like one, what, what is our creativity and how to, how were you going to express that at the same time? I'm like, well, how can I make money doing that? How I'm trying to plan my life. Right. It's such a it's complicated, you know?

kim: Yeah. It's and I think it's really important. I always say, you know, whenever I kind of join in with them, any sort of discussion, which is for the benefit of people, perhaps, you know, whatever age they are starting out in a creative career, that there's not actually, I don't think there's a quick and simple, direct route into it.

Like for me, I, I can't express enough that I spend a lot of time doing the kinds of jobs that I didn't really enjoy just to have, you know, money to pay my rent. And it was more, I knew that I kind of wanted to do this because I was finding the time outside about even though I was exhausted to still make hot.

And I just thought, no matter what I'm doing, I'm going to keep doing this. And hopefully that will turn into [00:09:00] rare. But ultimately there was lots of stages where I was uninsured. You get to this stage, but I think it's kind of deceptive at the moment. You know, you see people on social media who seem to have this huge following or like they seem to be doing really, really well.

And you don't get to see that kind of like little bit of story before all of that came to be and how they got there and what they had to do to get to that point. So I just think it's really important to talk about the thought of it's not an easy straight

line most of the time for most

people.

ryan: Yeah. Like if we were to compare what you're doing, it's like, you are like a doctor with a specialty in like what you do really well. But if you becoming a doctor or whatever, there's like a path that you can go to get there. And you're like, oh, I think I'm just going to doctor. But for you, there's no, like, I think of an illustrator, like you played with graphic design. like you have to find your way. And I think that's it's makes it interesting, but it also makes it really.

kim: Yeah. And it's, I think it's really hard to kind of. I know for me, [00:10:00] even before kind of just the creative career, like, as you say, I had to kind of figure out which bit of illustration I enjoyed

the most in which I could kind of realistically make a career out of. So I tried I

used to do like storyboarding

for you know, kind of independent films and advertising, but when I lived in Manchester and did bits of like art department for TV and, you know, sat and prop painting and making yeah, just little bits and bobs or pet projects for the people.

And it was striking books doing dog port traits for a little bit, I used to paint like really sort of, you know, like these big lush watercolor portraits of people's dogs, which I looked well, but yeah, it was just all kind of, lots of bits and bobs to figure out where I sat and what I wanted to do and what I was good at.

So.

ryan: and

It is deceptive. You look at someone's social media and they're like, well, they obviously know what the hell they're doing. Right. And you're on this side and you're young person or whatever. And you're like, I don't know.

I don't, I feel like I'm supposed to go this way, but I don't know how to get there. So.

you know, one of the [00:11:00] reasons, I'm glad you're sitting down with me today because we got to figure it out. You know, we got to band together and figure out how are we going to do this?

kim: Yeah, it's really important. I think, to pass down that not only just like bits of, kind of your experience, but also just like the reassurance that it's okay

to

not know where you're at right away

and that you can.

There's lots of different stages of which you might feel that you've hit some things then you have, and then you try something different and it's not, there's no prescribed amount of time

to get to

that point.

Or, you know, I still

definitely don't know exactly. I don't have some

sort of master plan where I'm going to be, you know, in a couple of years even, but I'm kind of still just getting

there and piecing things together. So yeah, it's a constant journey and you probably will end up adapting and

changing as well.

I

ryan: Yeah.

kim: people,

ryan: So it was after that conversation with your dad, that you were like, okay, I'm going to get serious about this. I'm going to hone in on my, find your thing. Is that kind of like the direction you went after that?

kim: yeah. And again, even after that, I mean, I think [00:12:00] the biggest milestone for me was I had my first sort of solo painting exhibition at a gallery here called the new art exchange which was sort of focused on family connections and like the Jamaican diaspora. And that was just a lot of kind of finger painting.

And I guess that to me was where I understood that that was the kind of side of things that I enjoyed depicting. Like I've always been kind of really interested in like characters and like narrative and storytelling and history. So that if I look back, I think that was when I was about not, no,

maybe it was about 22, 23.

I did the

exhibition.

ryan: Yeah

kim: And yeah, I think just my enjoyment of

that sort of series of paintings led me to understand what area or, you know, like what my subject matter

was I particularly enjoyed. And yeah, as I say, I think the less that I worried in, the more

that I just focused on making work, the more that

people seem to take note and that I actually got jobs.

So yeah, it just kind of all spiraled after me just kind of sitting down and realizing [00:13:00] we'll just put effort

into this and just keep going.

ryan: yeah. And, but it was like, along the way, there was probably days where it was like, is this working? Is this, was this the right call? Was there times like that though?

kim: Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. And also it wasn't really consistent. I mean, I'd say I've been probably working fully freelance since perhaps around 2014 and I graduated 2007. So if you think about it, that's quite, you know, like that's for now, especially, there's quite a lot of artists who just come straight out of university and hit the ground running because somebody seen them on Instagram or they've got really good interviews yet.

And it doesn't really happen that way

for everybody. And certainly not. When I was a student, we didn't have all these great ways that you can promote yourself. So it was a lot

of just sort of, and what, that's the thing as well? I don't know.

Like, I think a lot of artists find it quite difficult to balance their creativity with like networking and promoting themselves, but dating it's that natural to most of us.

No. It's like put yourself out there and like communicate with the right [00:14:00] people as well as having it's on your own. So yeah, all of that was just a massive hurdle for me that I had to learn

about because I just wasn't good at abs.

ryan: It's weird that like us creative people, we want, we have something inside of us that we want to put out in the world, but we're also like, I don't know. I find a lot of us are like, well, I don't want to draw too much attention to myself or I don't want to like, cause I think we have people in our minds that we don't like that maybe, know, they're not just about it or there's a way to do it properly,

kim: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think that's, it's just like a weird, I just, I wonder if it's just like the way that creative people's brains work is that it's a lot of people who are creative as well. They just kind of are almost too humble in their own ability to imagine that, you know, somebody would want to see their work because they tend to be doing from a place of passion rather than from a place of, oh, you know, everybody's gonna look this piece I'm making, it's more, you've got to kind of jump this hurdle, like mentally that yeah.

I deserve to have my work seen

early on. I just have to be put in this space.

ryan: And

You have to just [00:15:00] push through it I don't think there's like, a time where it like goes away. Pushing back against that feeling of like, I'm drawing too much attention to myself, or I don't deserve this attention or whatever it Is

kim: I can't think of one moment when it just changed, I think because I'm not so very shy as well. I was always very sort of like introverted. Shy kid. And I think I realized as I'm sure a lot of people do that, you can't really have those two things in tandem beyond a certain point.

Like if you want to do with your work, but for me, it was literally just faking it. Like I just pretended to be somebody a bit more confident on this, like, right. This is my confident business art. And like, the

ryan: Yeah.

kim: the more it felt comfortable and natural

ryan: Yeah. I love that because I think that, like, it sounds so silly when you're doing it, and putting it on, but it is effective to just like, okay, now I'm going to think, what would that person think? Like, I'm going to be that person right now. and it's a little tricky. It does help.

kim: Yeah. Tightly.

ryan: let's talk about your actual work and building your craft. What were some of the ways that you kind of went [00:16:00] about honing in and finding what you like, to do and what you were really good at and like your thing? ,

kim: unfortunately I think like something that maybe stunted my creative sort of getting to that point where I had a, really a distinctive style was that I was really stubborn about ever referencing other artists that had gone before me. I know that's like a massive thing that's taught to you at school, but I just felt like if I was to take in the work of other people, then it would almost influence my work to the point where it wasn't mine anymore.

But now I totally disagree with that. And I think in some ways, like there is a level of just needing to absorb,

not even just art necessarily, but you know, just like things like that.

I'm really, really into film and

horror in particular. So I think kind of noticing things about the horror genre that I liked visually, if like that, you know, like color palettes, for example, in like jelly films and B movies and stuff, that kind of thing.

Just collecting images from, you know, different types of [00:17:00] media that I felt were very much kind of what excited me about creating and it doesn't have to be this strict route of, well, you know, these were all I stay and I'm going to kind of take it back from that guy. But from this person, like it was more kind of collecting and actually physically back in the day, I didn't even, you know, didn't even have a laptop when I was at uni

when I was there, like physically print out images or I

bought books and lots of, kind of like sixties print, design books, and yeah, just like buying lots of DVDs or

films that, you know, kind of spoke to me visually and even just people as well.

Like people from

history that I thought were kind of. Visually interesting. And trying to figure out what it was about them and just storing

lots of different points of reference.

ryan: Yeah.

kim: wanted to kind of

like have in my work somehow as

well.

ryan: I think a lot of people do think about that kind of using and being inspired by other artists as Like a, you know, almost a black and white thing, but it's not, it's really like a collage.

kim: Definitely. Yeah. And I think it just helped me to kind of like all [00:18:00] day or thoughts a little bit in some ways, because you can just start kind of in a bit critical about what it is that you like about things, and then apply that to your own work as well. And just really hone in on what it is that makes it yours rather than it just being a

simple process of like taking things.

ryan: Yeah, I think that's interesting about being critical is like you know, there is benefit to criticism. You know, we that's criticism helps us grow as like creatives and artists, but also criticism can also be kind of lazy and it can just be people who aren't making anything, criticizing things.

How do you stay out of that kind of negative, critical mindset? Like in stay into that? I gotta be critical of my works cause I want to get better, but not too critical. How do you find that sweet spot?

kim: I find it really difficult. Like to be honest, I find constructive criticism still is something that I have to battle with. And it's really ridiculous because it's, it's such a part of like the job, isn't it. If you're a crazy, like you have to deal with the fact that not everything that you put [00:19:00] out into the world, somebody not everybody's gonna like it and they don't have to.

And that's fine. Like, it's really hard to get your mind around that. But in terms of myself, like, I think I just try it. Maintain a sense of openness about what art can do. They, because it can really be anything and it's so subjective, isn't it? That you just can't kind of turn it into like a personal attack and you also, can't kind of deem your opinion to be kind of necessarily better than the next person, because it's just, you just have to have kind of

conviction in what you're doing. But then as you say, at the same time, you know, be kind of honest with yourself about whether what you're doing, is it normal for, you know, like just kind of, it's really difficult. I still don't have perfected that.

And if somebody, even now, if I get a job and you know, I do a first draft and client comes back and says, no, no, no, like there's a bit of me.

That's just kind of like, great.

ryan: yeah.

kim: It's just, you know,

you have to just deal with it daily.

ryan: And it's tough sometimes because they, maybe [00:20:00] they're not understanding your vision. Criticism can be so many different things. Like either they didn't understand what you're going for, or they weren't in the right head space. Like It's so it can be so many things and, or someone could just, be having a bad day, you know, And they're like, no, no, no. So you have to like sort through all that. And then how do you deal with it inside though? like, do you have, do you have to fight at all? Like those negative thoughts? Like, is there for that or is that something that You deal with?

kim: I literally, I think when I first started, I

would literally just cry and then comeback which

again, I'm a very sensitive, so like very shy. So yeah, it was really hard for me to process the idea that, you know, like BR was not my baby, that I'd shown to somebody and they said that's ugly.

You know? Like it's like having to kind of, and again, I think it's another thing that it's just taken me a bit of time and understanding that, you know, this is not. It's not a, it's not necessarily like that. It's a piece of me that this person's critiquing. It's just that somebody wants to get to like their own creative [00:21:00] vision if it's for another person.

Anyway. So, and I guess it's different, isn't it? When it's worked for a particular client, then it's probably easier in some ways to take a step back because you know that you're basically creating something for a purpose for someone else, but then when it's your own work, it's a bit more personal, so it's harder sometimes to kind

of understand the things that people like and the things that people don't like, because you, your mind know what he's meant to communicate.

But yeah, basically I don't have an answer to that. I still fine.

ryan: Well, you know, it makes it, it helps to know that we're all in this together, but it's a little helpless. Like, I don't know, it doesn't go away. let's talk about craft and like, what do you work on? Like what's what do you like to work in? Like

what's your chosen? Are you doing it on a tablet or are you, how does that look for you?

kim: my background, I was always

really interested in like draftsmanship and like kind of just technical drawing and

painting. So I think I

learned all of that

before and again, like sort of taught back to like how old

I [00:22:00] am and when I went to

university and stuff, but I didn't have like any sort of digital equipment for really

long time.

I didn't figure out Photoshop. And so it was sort of in my mid twenties. I think I've almost, I've hit this point where I basically like combine that sort of like lack of knowledge with understanding about how to just draw. So.

ryan: yeah.

kim: In terms of the actual, like medium I use, I tend to work in like panning initially.

So like all the line work is

put down to some paper with like brushes to use like really, and it's almost born out or sort of, yeah, laziness my style because I just, didn't never wash or buy new brushes, like laziness and not having enough money. People on, you know, the textures and like the brush strokes and things that I use.

And that is often because I'm just using quite old briskly brushes that, you know, most people would throw away just within to get the sort of like black and gray tonal amounts down. And then I scan everything in and I add color and texture [00:23:00] the top or underneath that in Photoshop.

ryan: I was wondering, I'm looking through it, I'm like, this feels like physical, but it also looks digital. I love that you brought up, you know, having to find. Your, you know you've made your process that works, but it took time of like, you know, on? paper and then learning how to use the computer and just like

hacking it together.

Kind of right.

kim: Yeah, definitely. And even getting to you the tools that I use, like I used to do everything in bio and Cause you can see some really nice shading and kind of like turn volumes from far overseas, but I was never really kind of that thorough and, you know, researching my material. So I remember I do borrow things and then be surprised that they really, really faded in sunlight and, you know, just little experiments like that, which made me realize, right.

We need to find a different method to make things have a bit more longevity because maybe that's what you want. But with my work, I wanted it to be kind of like heavy and dark blocks and bold color. And I guess also the digital coloring side of things, like as much as I do enjoy [00:24:00] painting, when I became a bit more kind of involved in commercial illustration, the digital color was just the waste kind of speed up the process. , I mean, procreate and tablets were amazing for that, but I kind of, I've never felt comfortable being fully making work digitally. So it's a bit of a mixture of trying to capture the speed.

Just practicality of digital, as well as just having a bit of that sort of texture that I don't think you can quite

create necessarily on a tablet.

ryan: Well, what's cool about it is like, the limitations are the things that kind of like help us create our style and our voice, you know, it's, it's, what's cool about the arts versus like another field. is that like, well, if you don't have like the money at the time to buy new brushes all the time, but you make it your own, then it becomes your style. I think that's one of the coolest things about this is like, if you own it, there's really no limits, you know,

kim: Yeah,. definitely.

The foundational course that I [00:25:00] mentioned that a lot of people

in the

UK do before they get to uni, like I was on a particularly good one in Nottingham. And I think that was a bit of a takeaway from the teachers because I was always very useful.

Just worried about the fact that perhaps I didn't have as much money as other people, but I had a really good set of lecturers who just showed the ways that, you know, you can, with what you've got around you, you can quite often create something really beautiful. It's just about kind of like hiding in on that and like figuring out how to use it and how to make marks with stuff that you've just got to handle.

So I think I've always held on to that notion of like, even if, you know, I can't afford to update my computer or buy new brushes, what can I do with this sort of make them all satisfying as if it was a new brush.

ryan: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It takes away the excuse, because I think we all want to make stuff, but we're also like battling excuses. I find, I am like, well, I don't have the right thing or I don't have, you know, the brushes that I want to, so many excuses, but the is like, well, own it, own what you have and make that your thing. [00:26:00]

kim: Yeah, it's true. I mean, like, I definitely, it's a bit of as well, because I think it's really good to have, have that as a foundation before kind of going out and making work as a full-time working our ass. But I do think there is an element of, you know, the saying about Workman blames, his tools. Sometimes

the tools do affect the job don't they?

But it's like when you're in those kinds of like dire situations, it's really good

to just have that bit of kind of confidence in your ability to still make

some things as worthy. And, you know, to kind of see it as just as

valid as if you have brand

spanking, new brushes

ryan: yeah.

kim: iPod and stuff.

ryan: Yeah. So let's talk about like the idea process and like, what is inspiration look like for you How does it interact with it how does the whole thing start for you usually?

kim: If I'm totally honest, like I think most of the time my inspiration comes from, I tend to work backwards. Like I don't always have this like powerful concept for a piece of art, you know, or usually just something that I've kind [00:27:00] of thought, oh, this is like an image that I can get out of my mind or, you know, this particular, I need to kind of express

a need to draw this particular type of character.

So it tends to be the, you know, I'll have an idea of just something that I think looks cool. And then I'll like almost work backwards to give it some sort of, to create like a, to ground it a bit. So, yes, a lot of my work comes from. Just being really interested in particular types of characters, like I'm really interested in like empowered

women and, you know, mythology and just the

ways that kind of those types of women are demonized historically, that was kind of, that's kind of always like

a, an

interesting start point for men have, always been really drawn to those characters in every type of

media. So I guess from Bab,

perhaps I'll, you know, I'll make lots and lots of files of perhaps faces that I think in the body that, or, you know, like bits of kind of narrative that summarize way that I'm feeling about that subject. And yeah, I think it's inspiration [00:28:00] is really, really difficult while it's not consistent.

I mean, I don't know how you feel about as a creative. It's not something that. You can't necessarily just call it, can you, it just tends to hit you and then you just have to run with it for a while until perhaps you run out of steam or, you know, until you're satisfied with the product. So, yeah,

ryan: yeah.

kim: journey is usually something that is already kind of in my mind.

And then I kind of like things

that will then like solidify the

concept a bit

ryan: Mm, I like that. Yeah. And it like kind of like, cause what I'm hearing is like it's like something it's like a nagging, like thought or image or something like, Hmm. There's something there. And then I liked that. you? said like validating it with kind of your research or the things that you gathered kind of back up, like and give it? like something make it a bit more tangible.

But other than that, just you know, feeling in your head. when you have all those things, then do you just dive in to start drawing or like what happens after that?

kim: I was always really envious of people who like one of my favorite things to do it on [00:29:00] Instagram in particular is I follow a lot of artists who is so brilliant at making sketchbooks and doing concept drawings before they make the big piece. And I am actually like so bad at that. Like I tend to just kind of go straight in.

So, I mean, say for example, and I did an exhibition, which then became a series of prints and the expression was titled of Lilith. And this was a lot of, kind of big types of characters that are been describing. It's called empowered fam and taught characters who were maybe mythological, maybe a bit more realistic.

But yeah, , I find it kind of important to I've got a bit of background knowledge as, as an artist to be able to kind of like depict faces from my imagination. I tend to do that, you know, just like pencil something out. And then if it's not feeling right to me, perhaps I'll like take a reference of my own face or find a reference just to kind of like flesh that out and make it, have the proportions that I feel like needs to kind of sit within that realm of found in reality, be believable.

But I don't, I, I [00:30:00] don't always tend to do a rough drawing and it's only like if it's for a client or something that I need to before I finish a piece, then yeah. I'll just kind of whip up a digital drawing of something and just figure out the composition in color. But when it's for my oldest, if I'm really impatient, I think so attempt to just

get my pencil And brushes out and just go for it.

And then if that doesn't go well, and I've learned my

lesson And

I'll maybe then

ryan: It takes way

longer.

Yeah.

kim: yeah,

ryan: I liked that. but

I just want to get into it. When I was younger, like in like our classes and stuff, I would always get in trouble that like, it would like show your work. And the reason I bring it up is because, you know, it made me feel invalid. Like it was just like, oh, I don't work like that really.

Well, I don't naturally work that way, I guess. Maybe I'm not like serious. So have you dealt with any of like that? Has there been any like insecurity or anything about your process? Like some people are good at just seeing it from and like charting out their work and [00:31:00] showing it and filling sketchbooks.

like, have you dealt with any insecurity about any of that?

kim: yeah,

definitely. Like, I think I completely relate to that. Like I think it just makes me feel that maybe I'm not like proper, like,

ryan: yeah,

kim: because I think as well, especially like if you do study at all at school, there's so much around kind of oh yeah. You know, like describe what you're trying to say here. And, you know, like give us some, like talk us through the word and I think you almost learn to like bullshit in some ways.

And I think I did learn to do that, but it didn't always feel like a need to tailor. I can, I can, if somebody asks me to show me the working, then I can do it. But if left to my own devices, it's not a stage that I necessarily feel like I always need to do, but yeah, I totally get you like it did sometimes make me feel like, well, is this because I'm not actually, am I just sort of like faking it and

ryan: Yeah. Yeah.

kim: pictures rather than having

this whole process to get to that point.

ryan: It's interesting that we know so much about creativity and we know, okay. Like there's lots of different ways. There's lots of different [00:32:00] types of creatives, but here we are, we're talking about, you know, learning and then being like, oh, I guess I'm not proper. Like it. Why does that exist? like there should be no proper.

We should know, Hey, there's a lot of different ways we can do this. A lot of people, some people don't think in pictures, they don't, they think and feelings they do. if the work is good, it doesn't matter how it's going through their brain. There's lots of different

kim: Yeah.

ryan: There's no proper is what I'm trying to say.

kim: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think like, although it's kind of nice to

see how somebody gets to a point, then it makes the work any less valid. If, you know, like just the end product is

something really, really beautiful. Like something that moves you. And I think for me, it's, it's not necessarily all about

how you get there. Like, I don't think it needs to be quite

as much. Around that, Like it kind of almost makes the piece in some ways, like, I think, you know, it's now almost feel a lot

of pressure to show that process. Don't they, you know, like we've kind of, I know that I definitely do, you know, sort of, not necessarily pressure.

Cause I do like to share,

I think it would be interesting to see people's process. And I kind of [00:33:00] like watching back to see the way the eye works in times and I know that people

find it, you know, like therapeutic to watch and think is really cool and maybe inspiring. But I think there's a lot of kind of sense of, oh yeah.

You need to see how this was made, you know, like let me

ryan: yeah, yeah.

kim: what you believe that you've done, you know, the

right steps to get to that point.

ryan: Have you had like something that's completely bypass past that process or where it just like it's you can feel it in your head and then you just like, make it like, it gone from like inspiration to like done thing?

kim: I think, yeah, like it doesn't happen all the time, I guess. Most recently I was doing a painting. I got sent some paints over by, you know, the company that make the DayGlo paints.

And like I just had, as soon as I got this pallet, they gave me all these really cool

vintage, Halloween postcard

colors. I just had this

This notion to pain, if it was just something that was in my mind is kind of like witchy [00:34:00]

black sort of like seer painting that just, I mean, I guess I still have to kind of sketch

something out because it was like almost too fantasy

for me to be able to kind of necessarily do immediately, but that felt really, really quick and it wasn't, it just wasn't me.

There've been stopped like at the base of my brain for so long. And it just kind of came to me really, really quickly. And

ryan: yeah.

kim: huge other than just kind

of getting the proportions. Right. So.

ryan: Yeah. It's weird. Cause like, sometimes that happens right where it's just like, Pretty much fully formed. And then other times you do have to do those processes to kind of find, and it's not, we're talking about your work, but we're really just talking about any creative project. Sometimes it's just like the idea arrives.

It's like, whoa, this is amazing. And then other times you have to work, you have to, it's good for us to be able to do the show, the work part, but when you're coming up in your learning, I don't know, being told that you're not proper. It can really slow you down.

kim: definitely. And I think, cause I mean, I haven't really [00:35:00] had found the time-lapse that we've been in lockdown, but I do try and do bits of like arts. So like I teach some times on like community projects with like adults in particular, like teaching

different types of art and what making pictures and making marks. And it's one of the things that I always try and express. There's so many people who have been put off

from making art, because they've been told, you know, like they're not

doing it properly or this isn't right. And there's just, it's weird how like the school system kind of like forces you to believe that unless you're making this particular style of art in a particular way, then it's not valid when it does actually.

I deny it, it doesn't make any sense because a lot of that is also based on artists who already existed. You know, I don't know how you guys have it over there, but we had to almost, you know, like copier a van Gough picture exactly. Or, you know, kind of paint in the style of this artist. And if you didn't nail that, then you were doing it badly, but there's actually so many ways to make all, I just think it's such a hard thing to [00:36:00] teach, that mainly you should teach people that they can't do it and that

ryan: yeah.

kim: or wrong

way, you know?

I think it's really hard to navigate.

ryan: It's like so much of teaching is like really focusing on like, the, the the trees, whereas like creativity and it's like, the forest And guiding people through the forest, you know? So like not being able to replicate a style. That's like, if you take a step back, it's like, well, that's nothing. You're going to find, your style.

Don't worry about this style. but when you're in it, you're like, you know, I'm thinking back to, like when I'm figuring out my creativity at 15, I can't do something. And I'm like, okay, well, And then you just delays, you, you don't you probably going to, come back to it because, but you're like, oh, it's not, I guess I don't have It Or I guess I don't silly.

kim: Yeah, I think that's a really good analogy as well about the trees in the forest. Like I think I always say that as well as people who say, oh, you know, I wish I could, I can't make hot and rubbish. And it's like, well, you just haven't found the top of all that you like to make, you know? Yeah. And that you [00:37:00] probably all get up because somebody said to you, or you can't draw

ryan: Yeah,

kim: figure correctly.

Say that means you're terrible, which is not,

ryan: no.

kim: you

know,

ryan: Yeah, I it's, we just need to unlearn some things are and look at them in a different light. And, but it's hard when we're trying to teach people and I can understand the for educators. I can understand why it's hard, but I think, I don't dunno. I think there has to be a better way.

kim: I agree. Yeah.

ryan: So let's talk about your inspiration and how ideas form in your mind.

So if you, in your mind's eyes were to picture your creativity and give it partially based on how you interact with it, what would that look like?

kim: How interact with Mike? So, I mean, I guess it's really hard to pinpoint that actually, like, I guess I'm always trying to make sure that I'm having fun with what I'm making. And also I didn't, there was a point where I didn't really [00:38:00] realize, I don't think, and it was maybe like social media that

helped me to kind of realize that there was an element of I mean, I'm thinking all law is politics, isn't it.

But I think for me,

like there was an element of trying to kind of engage

with a particular audience and communicate a particular feeling and

energy. The, if that was missing from some thing, then almost like the

visual didn't matter as much.

And, you know, kind of like trying to like hit

that, that point was always really

important to me.

Like, I'm not really sure how else to explain it. How my inspiration has like,

it, it tends to be, as I

say, like beginning with a visual and then kind of

trying to swim in a particular energy

that I also can't pinpoint some of those

ryan: Okay.

kim: yeah. Combination of 70 things that, you know, when you've just been doing it for so long, that CVT just materialize.

And then when you finish it, you're like, right. Yeah, that's right. You know, that's what the appointed positions, right. Or we knew that that pallet right. Be energy and this character's eyes is spot on, you know, things like that. That just seem to have become just what I

do [00:39:00] naturally

ryan: Okay. What's, what's causing that itch or that thing that you're seeing? Like what, what is,

in there that's kind of giving your conscious mind kind of like, oh, go here and do this.

Like, what is that? What do you think of that is,

kim: I'm not sure. I think, I've always been really, really fascinated with storytelling

and like communicating and like sharing a moment via narrative, but communicate without words. So I guess that some of that's really important to me, but that just made me think, I don't know if this is really connected, so I apologize if this doesn't answer your question properly, but it just, I was just trying to think about where that might've come from and why the need to do that was so strong.

And I think I've had a few conversations actually about you know, like my kind of interest in like narrative. Dark things and horror, and also like strong characters and five and women characters in mythology. And I think because my background and my dad was a preacher, like up until about 10 years old.

And we were raised in church obviously. And we [00:40:00] have these kind of, you know, like those old school elaborate Bibles with like a gold trim and that page. And like these really loose drawings of, you know, people being eaten by lions. And so by whales and things, and like demons in my, I guess, like that would have been my first, the first thing that kind of maybe shook me and made me realize the power of thought sort of imagery, but like everything that is probably my age that comes along with, you know, that kind of storytelling and religion perhaps fill it didn't somehow, because I definitely see elements of that in the way that I kind of paint and draw things now, especially at my more recent work, it feels like.

It's really tapping into, perhaps some of the books that I had as a kid that we were given and terrify people also, maybe for really,

they made me feel something and I was engaged

and I needed to understand, you know, kind of what this all man

and the narrative was always really prevalent.

ryan: Yeah. I think people don't. I think we all forget about those books when we were younger before the computer and everything, those pictures were like, [00:41:00] like impactful, you know, like I can imagine about like, I'm sure we had a Bible like that They were, you know, you as kids, you looked at them for a long time because there wasn't, you know, you didn't have a screen to look at, or you weren't allowed on TV, but they were, were built to kind of tell a story and I love that.

Once you mentioned it Like, that? you were inspired by that. like, oh, I see that in her work, you know, there.

kim: Oh, so maybe even sorry to

interrupt,

like it.

just

ryan: it.

kim: made me think as well of like a really strong memory is and this is maybe even a better example because obviously there'd just be one image, but you know, like records leave

art was

such a huge thing. So as a child, one of my uncles have like the most amazing expansive record collection.

I remember like his, his daughters, my cousins showing me the cover and the NFL from the war of the worlds. And it was just, it was horrible. It was like really terrible on them. And they, it was about like four or five that I really remember an image. And I don't even remember if I've not looked at it recently, but I think it was an image of, you know, like one [00:42:00] of the pulse sort of like shooting down a beam and like people sort of being melted and running through the streets and just, you know, they'd put that on and then like, make me look at this, oh, look at this like terrible art, this terrifying thing.

And just that feeling like it was, I remember being so traumatized, but also so excited that an image that was fairly static and I didn't understand what he was talking about. You know, it tended to sound the music. Yeah. It was enough, you know, just with the sound like I'm that image to kind of convey horror.

And just that really kind of made me think, well, if you can just do that in one

image,

ryan: yeah,

kim: later on that kind of stuck, I

guess.

ryan: yeah, Oh, I love that. And I love that we went from like a old school Bible. So like war of the worlds in aliens, that is like, what a fun mixture,

but that, that energy that's in, like when you craft a float or a photo or like an image and it, and it tells, it becomes more than, know, when you were looking at it, it was like, you get the sense of the whole story. you get your it's a [00:43:00] moment that tells so much more. I, that.

kim: yeah, definitely. I think that's some thing and it's,

it's interesting having these conversations. I hadn't really piece all of that

together, but I think

that is something that I'm always trying to do say that you know, even

if this is a static image, but within that image, you can imagine and tie universe

ryan: Yeah. Yeah.

kim: a personality, what sort of

thing?

ryan: Yeah. And it like, you just like looking at it cause you feel like I'm getting a little peek into this into more, you know, I love that. let's talk about your favorite thing to make. We talked a little bit about horror and one of my favorites on your page is like the goat in the black, it's kind of like black Philippi, like, you know, it was red, it was one of my favorites. to me about the things that,

that you like to make.

kim: I'm particularly drawn to just drawing women and femme characters with piercing sort of unapologetically, bold staff. I kind of think like, well, just, you know, those particular characters like existing in a universe that is sort of [00:44:00] slightly intimidating angles are powerful and engaging and beautiful.

Like I think there's just something about Those slightly mythological women and found characters that don't

try and be small, you know, that kind of take up space and that you know, what I, don't afraid to kind of look you in the

eye or, you know, that kind of magical in some way. I just, I don't really want to ask.

I've just always kind of been really attracted to draw

my sort of character. And as I said, you know, just kind

of looking more and more into the ways that those characters are presented in like Bible stories and mythology and things like

that as villainous, but train them as something more than that.

And, you know, it was kind of the victims of, you know, patriarchy and just fear. So I think just kind of re imagining these characters that they already exist, but, you know, like in a kind of different setting where they are the kind of masters of their own narrative and like the hero rather than the villain, I think I just

liked that sort of

ryan: Yeah.

kim: of things.

ryan: And like at the time if they're [00:45:00] historical, they were painted as a villain, but to go back and look at them, it's like, oh, with the lens that we have now, there's something very heroic. And being able to like, take this thing that was like, like hidden in the shadows and be like no, this I'm proud of this This is something to be proud of That's really exciting. like it's uh, a switching of power. It's it's really, I don't know, There's something about it that gets under your skin. I like it

kim: Definitely. And I think the one you

mentioned that I know the one, you mean it's called black Phillip bop, and that was inspired

by the film, the, which have you seen it? It's like, Yeah. The,

ryan: yes.

kim: and I think that's exactly that, isn't it? Why you kind of all led down this pathway. I mean, don't want to spoil it, but the, the kind of character that historically would have been demonized is celebrated and that kind of gets like a nice ending.

ryan: yeah.

kim: yeah, it was just kind of that feeling really, really inspired me. I think,

after seeing the film.

ryan: Blackville up, got under my skin for a while. after I lived at the time I lived on a farm and there, it was like a week after and some goats [00:46:00] like wandered into my like yard. And I was like, I, I, I just can't deal with it right now.

kim: Yeah, the problem we get

that would be really

scattered. Right?

ryan: Yeah. I was just, like I said to my wife, I'm

like, can we just get, I don't know if they just got to go. I just can't.

kim: Yeah.

ryan: what mediums do you like to work in? Like, what's your favorite? Like if you could work in your ideal situation, what do you like to work with?

kim: So I tend to work with just like ink straight out of a pot and just like water down through the gradients. And, but I don't even know that was my favorite. Like I used to use oil paint and stuff, but again, like, this sounds really bad, but I think out of laziness because there's so much cleaning and like white egg and I'm reading patient.

I do like kind of mediums that like kind of go on really smoothly like that. But then at the same time,

I do like the immediacy of things that just dry

really quickly. So just working in like washes of aching, it

tends to kind of give me that mixture of, you know, like, I feel like, I'm actually being painterly, but then, you know, it can

kind of just be granted pretty quick.

So like appeals to both of my means

really [00:47:00]

ryan: I like that. I wonder how often style comes from laziness and impatience.

kim: a lot.

ryan: Okay. They're like, oh, I love your style. Yeah.

I'm just really lazy and impatient.

kim: Yeah.

ryan: The imposter thing, like is there times that you feel like, what am I doing and how do you kind of get, through that?

kim: This has actually come up recently. Because I just did my first

Sort of like large scale painting exhibition in like a really long time.

And I had a conversation during the making of that, with one of the technicians who was like helping out to come in and do all the work.

I think so. Yeah,

somebody was basically having a conversation about me whilst I was in the room with

somebody else. So by listing all my achievements, as I know, yeah, she's this blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, like you made me feel a bit weird. And, and this person was like, well, you know, but you are, you have done these things.

And I just, I had to like take a moment to kind of think, why does that make me feel so uncomfortable? And I don't know. I think part of me [00:48:00] disliked it, because I guess it kind of stops the imposter syndrome thing stops you from sometimes getting on with things or, you know, it leads to procrastination

and lack of self belief to be able to create.

But in some ways, like, I think it partly for me comes from coming from a working class background

and like, not necessarily seeing it. You know, making a career out of art seems like this huge Schwab thing. So I think it's partly that for me, that it feels like not a real career, even though it is. And I,

you know, I worked my answer.

I'm, I'm really hard worker, but it just seems like this kind of flighty, weird thing,

to be able to do for a job. But also I think the imposter syndrome thing, if you can kind of like talk yourself out of it by

just sometimes sitting back and actually just like looking at your achievements. And I don't think many people, if you're busy a lot

and trying to stay afloat and make money, you don't get the chance

to just step back and be like, right, I've done that, that or not.

And there's, these are the things I've always wanted to do, and that's amazing. Or, you know, even if you made the time to make

all, you know, just kind of get out of your own head and create something that's amazing.

And kind of like

[00:49:00] almost talking yourself out of it, but then like maintaining the sense that you can keep on going and

like keep on pushing yourself.

ryan: yeah.

kim: and him, it's like you use it and do things to prove to myself that I deserve to be there, if that makes sense.

So like to do more.

ryan: Yeah, more convincing ourselves and we're putting on different mindsets So we can deal with our brains. I love it.

kim: Yeah.

ryan: Is there something that, like that stands out that you're really proud of that like a show or a piece that, was like this, I was really proud that I got to do that.

kim: I, I mean, this year has been kind of a roller coaster and there's been a few things. I the club I designed some pieces with converse which was like a crazy opportunity. Like just didn't see that coming at all. And it was really, really great. Yeah. The, the Columbia records, black history month illustrations that I did that was like a really amazing thing to be part of.

And it was just really nice to kind of [00:50:00] have, you know, just be approached by Columbia records to do that, you know, and just kind of be part of something so special and to celebrate those artists. And yeah, I just finished a book actually with penguin books, which that's like, you know, from a very young age, I was sort of like collecting the covers of that, you know, books from the sixties and seventies, and that's a going to be gold for me.

So I've just illustrated, it's called divine your dinner. And it's basically like a recipe book based on the tarot deck. So you can kind

of make a meal together based on that. And yeah, that was just like a really fun, huge project with like a really great team and yeah, things like that, which like I remember now, well, you know, what I wanted to do

when I was very young,

ryan: Yeah.

kim: proud.

ryan: I love that. And I love

seeing, you know, things come circling back around and getting to do that. That's that's really encouraging. Thank you so much for taking the time. Love talking with you. Last question.

What was the last thing that you saw that you were just like, whoa, like just blew your mind, not your work, [00:51:00] just like something else someone else made that you were just like, wow.

kim: Oh,

gosh. I think it was probably

actually this exhibition. I've got a poster of it on the

wall by twin, the audit

teller called a countervailing theory that was on at the Barbican. And I don't even, I mean, it was unfortunate in that it was kind of on during the time when we were in locked and I don't know how many people got to see it, but it just absolutely blew my mind.

It's one of the most stunning, visually on conceptually pieces of work. I've seen it a real long time. I couldn't get over. It had a lot of the themes that I kind of really, really interesting, but you know, when somebody kind of takes an idea that you kind of been willing. Presents in such a way that you would never have imagined it could go down.

And I mean, I'd urge everybody maybe to seek out rather than me trying to explain it. So it's called a countervailing theory,

ryan: Yeah.

kim: it's just incredible and yeah, that's stuck with me and it still does. I think about it all the time. I've got the poster of it on the wall from the show and the

book I just absolutely

looked at.

ryan: What, what parts specifically are you thinking about, about

it?

Like

what's

kim: Well, I [00:52:00] mean, just like it kind of is basically an exploration of like the role versus of kind of So you'd like, patriarchy is no longer a thing. And like, this is kind of like ancient, Tropic women who are in charge and men are grown as servants and it just, but it's, it's a kind of, it's almost filmic and its scope in terms of narrative and the pieces.

I think she made them with like Barbara and I think it was like borrow and talk and acrylic, and they're just kind of like almost negatives.

So everything's like lots of black And like negative space, but just kind of worked so perfectly that, you know, it just felt like something that the kind of, you know, you sometimes see all and you think, oh, you know, I maybe could have denied, but have had the all day, but I just never would have

thought to go down that direction without kind of role reversal, you know,

like women warriors and like kind of male servants,

but it all kind of, I don't want to spoil it in case we will

do much to see to Al, but it all kind of is this kind of, topsy-turvy really interesting exploration of how that kind of power dynamic isn't necessarily you might think it might turn

[00:53:00] out to be.

And yeah, it

ryan: Yeah.

kim: powerful.

ryan: That sounds really cool. I'm going to

check it out. Oh, that's great.

Thank you So much. Where can, we find you on social media? What yeah, what's your handle? I have, this is a thing I need to add because I don't promote people enough, I guess.

kim: Yeah.

ryan: I wrote down, ask her to talk about her social media and where I can find you.

and what you have coming up that we can look forward to.

kim: So I think you're best off just sticking with my Instagram. I don't really maintain a website or anything anymore, which is Kemah Tron. So it's Kim underscore a underscore Tron, lady Sean, but Kim Tron. And yeah, in terms of things coming up, I'm basically continuing with the series that I've been working on, which is like, um, sort of retellings of characters in Greek mythology, Greek mythology. So I just did one about, um, the hall pay and just kind of retelling, as we mentioned earlier, the stories of these sort of demonized, villainous fam mom stays as like the hair is the best story.

So [00:54:00] that kind of thing. Um, yeah, hopefully, but downtime to just build on similar projects that I've been kind of like wanting to do for a really long time, as I've had a lot of like commercial and client work over the last year. And I finally got a break, so more and more personal work, which will be really exciting to make and hate.

ryan: And when is the cookbook coming out next year or.

kim: Oh, so it's actually it's available for pre-order now, but it will be released in September.

ryan: Okay,

kim: it divine your dinner. It's called.

ryan: love it. Thanks again. Love chatting with you. Love your work. Thank you.

kim: Great to chat.